Planescape

[DM=DisputeMediator]

I'm curious... With a crystal sphere surrounding a particular world, how do the inhabitants of each world view the moon(s) and or the stars? Again, just curious.

[spinagon]

admin said:

That sounds really cool!

We currently have a PS PBMB in progress, Bird in a Cage, PM me and I'll give you the password if you want to check it out.

Odd. It's not letting me "send" you the PM. I can spell check and all, but cannot send or preview.

Anyway, send me the word. I'm game.

[spinagon]

dm4disputemediator said:

I'm curious... With a crystal sphere surrounding a particular world, how do the inhabitants of each world view the moon(s) and or the stars? Again, just curious.

The worlds themselves are each an infinite universe. So they can see forever despite this "shell". Each of the planes are infinite, including each of the planes' layers.

[DM=DisputeMediator]

spinagon said:

dm4disputemediator said:

I'm curious... With a crystal sphere surrounding a particular world, how do the inhabitants of each world view the moon(s) and or the stars? Again, just curious.

The worlds themselves are each an infinite universe. So they can see forever despite this "shell". Each of the planes are infinite, including each of the planes' layers.

So does a crystal sphere surround each universe, or do "transparent" crystal spheres surround each planet?

And if the planets of Toril, Krynn, and Oerth are each their own separate "worlds," would this indicate that they each reside in separate universes as well?

(Sorry, I would know the answers to these questions already if it weren't for the fact that the 2nd Edition "Spelljammer" boxed set continues to elude me, if by only a hair's breadth each time, even after 18 years of DMing...)

[Stix]

Crystal spheres are entirely a creation of the Prime Material Plane. Think of the Planescape multiverse divided along the following lines:

Outer Planes (philosophy)
|
Astral Plane (thought)
|
Prime Material Plane (balanced reality)
|
Ethereal Plane (possibility)
|
Inner Planes (physicality)

The Outer Planes and the Inner Planes are collections of universes (the Abyss, Mount Celestia, Fire, Negative Energy), while the Astral, Prime, and Ethereal are each only one universe.

However, many (or, depending on interpretation, all) of the Outer Planes have "layers" within their universes -- different interpretations of the philosophies that support their existence. The Beastlands, for instance, is a representation of pure and unbounded nature. It is divided into three layers: one of eternal sunlight, one of eternal twilight, and one of eternal night. Mount Celestia, the plane of lawful virtue, is divided into seven layers, through which one can ascend by following a path related to a chosen virtue (some paths are harder, but lead to higher layers). And so on.

It could be said that a crystal sphere is a layer of the Prime. I'm not entirely sure of how the breakdown works, but as I understand it, each major Prime world is in its own crystal sphere. There's only one universe for it all, it's just subdivided quite a bit.

[DM=DisputeMediator]

So in fact, the "multiverse" consists of the different "universes" which are comprised of the planes, with only one "universe" for each. But my question is, does a crystal sphere surround each planet or "world", or do the crystal spheres each surround a solar system? Basically, what all exactly is encompassed by one of these crystal spheres? If it's just a planet or "world", then obviously the crystal spheres must be transparent. If they each surround an entire solar system, that would account for the people being able to see the moon(s) and stars, or what have you, without each sphere having to be transparent to explain it off.

[Stix]

As it was explained to me, there's one civilized Prime world in each crystal sphere. Each one could encapsulate a solar system or galaxy, but intelligent life is found only on that specific world.

Spelljammer-savvy folks, correct me if I'm wrong.

[spinagon]

I never got into Spelljammer. But from what I understand, from the perspective of each Prime world, the crystal spheres don't exist, because the universes contained within those crystal spheres is infinite. So you'd never reach the spheres. Of course, like I said, I never got into Spelljammer so I know nothing about it really. I just think I recall learning this as it's kinda a prerequisite for Planescape knowledge since the Prime Material Plane has to be explained. But from the map that came with the PS boxed set that depicts all the inner planes, outer planes, ethereal & astral planes, and the Prime Material plane...it shows the Prime Material Plane as a giant sphere (phlogistan?...or whatever the stuff's called; the matter between the crystal spheres) with many marble-like spheres within it, which are each a prime world. So each world is encased within a crystal sphere, along with its universe. So I would assume that there could be an infinite amount of other worlds within one world's sphere... This is where I'm unsure of entirely. So I would need the clarification from a Spelljammer master. If the crystal spheres encased just a planet/world, then we would have a crystal sphere encircling each of the nine planets within our solar system...I would think.

[DM=DisputeMediator]

kassil said:

Portals on the crystal spheres lead out into the phlostigon, which you can sail in a spelljammer to other spheres.

Whatever you do, don't expose the phlostigon to flames.

That's an interesting theory, spinagon, about the spheres surrounding our planets... (In fact, in the Theology class I took for an easy credit back in college, one theory stated that the Earth, itself, used to be encapsulated in a sphere of ice [up in the sky], and that "Noah's Flood" was actually caused by a meteor crashing through, and the subsequent melting of this "icy sphere" which surrounded Earth.) But all that aside, Kassil the Erratic stated previously that in order to travel from world to world, Spelljamming vessels had to open "portals" in the crystal spheres, and so they would definitely have to be a tangible thing in order for this to occur...lest the Spelljammers would crash into the spheres and be immolated in the process!

[spinagon]

Yeah I now recall hearing about having to use portals o reach the phlogiston. That makes it much like a layer to the outer planes in that each "layer" of a plane is in itself infinite, and can only be reached through portals. Likewise, the prime universes are themselves infinite and can only be "exited" via portals, or conduits.

[DM=DisputeMediator]

stix said:

As it was explained to me, there's one civilized Prime world in each crystal sphere. Each one could encapsulate a solar system or galaxy, but intelligent life is found only on that specific world.

Spelljammer-savvy folks, correct me if I'm wrong.

So, according to stix, as yet to be corrected by anyone more familiar with Spelljamming, each crystal sphere encapsulates a solar system or galaxy with but one planet per crystal sphere containing sentient life, in the universe upon which the Prime Material Plane (of which there is only one) resides...correct?

[Stix]

The Planewalker's Handbook offers a short blurb.

"A countless number of prime-material worlds float within separate vast crystal spheres, which are themselves contained in an ocean of fiery material called phlogiston. Isolated as their worlds are, most Prime inhabitants believe themselves to be at the center of the multiverse, and their world the only one in existence."

- PWHB, p. 32

[DM=DisputeMediator]

Good post. So there is but one Prime Material Plane, with many different Prime "worlds." Kind of sketchy on what they mean by "worlds" though... It could mean planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes, etc... I'd be willing to bet that "Spelljammer" goes into more detail on it. And if this phlogiston is so flammable, I wonder why the very stars themselves don't ignite the whole of it? If only we could find someone on here who's as well-versed on "Spelljammer" as everyone seems to be on "Planescape." I do, in fact own the Planescape boxed set, but as I have stated previously, none of my players can hardly ever find their way out of town...much less to other planes and/or dimensions.

[spinagon]

Well I have a single Spelljammer book which I bought used from a local store's book section, although I think it may be a part of a larger batch of books (ie. the Spelljammer setting boxed set/beginning set) "Concordance of Arcane Space". The book states:


Crystal Shells

"All wildspace (wildspace = outer space) is bounded by crystal shells or crystal spheres. Inside the crystal sphere is the vacuum of wildspace, the planets, and stars. Outside the crystal sphere is the rainbow ocean of phlogiston and more crystal spheres.

The size of a crystal sphere is determined by the size of the planetary system inside. Usually a sphere has a radius at least twice as big as the orbital radius of the outermost celestial body in the solar system (ie., the distance from the shell to the outermost body of the system is the same as the distance from that outermost body to the center point of the system).

Because of their great size, the outside of a crystal sphere appears perfectly flat. The curviture is so gradual that it is completely undetectable to anyone who is close enough to see the crystal sphere through the obscuring phlogiston.

The spheres consist of an unbreakable, dark, ceramic material of unknown origin. Some legends state (and various theologians agree) that the smooth-surfaced shells were created and positioned by the gods themselves to protect their worlds from the ravages of the phlogiston, which is held to be the prime matter of the universe. Less charitable philosophers maintain that such shells were place by an even higher authority to keep gods and men in and confine their activities.

Whatever their origin, the crystal shells are uniform throughout space. All appear as great, dark, featureless spheres of unidentifiable matter.

The crystal spheres are definitely solid. They have no gravity along either their enterior or exterior sides (an exception to the rule that all large objects have gravity). No magic has been found that can damage or alter the surface of a shell, except for those spells which cause portals to open. Even this, however, is believed to be nothing more than an artificial triggering of a natural phenomenon, since portals also occur naturally and seemingly at random. They are apparently immune to the effects of 'wishes' and even the wills of the outer planar powers (though this does not rule out the possibility that the outer planar powers created them--perhapse they were wise enough to prevent even their own tampering.'

The crystal shell is an impassable barrier to space voyagers unless they are properly prepared or very fortunate. Five methods are known for getting from one side of a crystal sphere to another:

1) It can be bypassed entirely with a 'teleport' or 'dimension door' spell. The traveler blinks from one side of the shell to the other without physically crossing the shell. Only a magical item or magical spell can effect such a transfer.

2) A 'phase door' spell or magical device which duplicates that spell allows a ship or a portion of the shell to become immaterial so the ship can pass through.

3) Naturally occurring portals pierce the shell in various locations at random and unpredictable intervals. Looking for such a portal can be a time-consuming task.

4) In some systems, stars are located around the fringes. Occasionally, such stars are themselves portals to other locasions which can be accessed by diving into the heart of the star. Such portals are very rare; voyagers should definitely check local listings before incinerating themselves in an unknown situation.

5) The legendary 'spelljammer' and creatures such as space dragons seem to have an innate ability to open portals to the phlogiston. These portals close slowly over a long period, so other ships can sometimes pass through them. From outside a sphere, these portals are easily visible.

Note that portals as discussed here are merely simple doors allowing passage from one side of a crystal shell to the other. They are not gates and they do not allow transit between dimensions. Magic that relies on other planes or other dimensions is notoriously unreliable when cast in close proximity to a crystal shell.

The crystal sphere itself represents the outer limit of the influence of gods and other dimensional creatures. Magic that summons or draws power from such beings or creatures does not function outside these bounds. Much of the decision as to what will and will not work is left to the individual DM, but this restriction definitely does not apply to priest spells of levels 1 and 2.

Those fantasy systems with stars in the night sky often have these stars mounted along the inside of the crystal sphere. The nature of stars varies from sphere to sphere, however. Within some spheres the stars are small portholes looking out on the phlogiston, in some they are painted lights along the interior, in some they are great cities inhabited by alien creatures, an in others they are great bowls of fire held aloft by huge statues of forgotten gods."


The Phlogiston

"Outside and between the crystal spheres is a turbulent, rainbow ocean of flammable ether called the phlogiston. The phlogiston is a multicolored sea upon which float the various systems within their crystal shells. The term phlogiston is applied equally to both the multicolored medium and to the entire region surrounding the crystal spheres.

Phlogiston has varying thicknesses in space and forms dense rivers between planet-sized objects (such as the spheres themselves). Voyagers moving along these paths of concentrated phlogiston discover that the greater the density of the flow, the faster a ship can move. A ship can speed up or slow down by penetrating deeper into or raising itself out of these phlogiston rivers. Stellar distances can be covered quickly in such areas. Further, the speed of the ship is at least partially dependent upon the surface area it presents to the flow, so many ships carry sails to increase their speed in the interstellar ocean.

Gravity works in phlogiston the same way it does in wildspace. Down is directed toward the major axis of the ship.

Phlogiston is none of the recognized four elemental matters. It is neither air nor earth, fire nor water. It cannot be reproduced or brought inside the bounds of a crystal sphere. If an attempt is made, whether by physical or magical containment, the phlogiston inexplicably dissipates, leaving no trace. Phlogiston simply
cannot exist within wildspace or on the surface of a planet.

Finally, phlogiston is dangerously flammable, much like oil-soaked cotton, which poses its own problems. Any flame exposed to phlogiston causes the surrounding area (including the phlogiston-laden air envelope of the ship) to burst into flame. This flame expands immediately to three times its normal diameter and inflicts three times its normal damage. For this reason, fireballs, bombards, arquebuses, and any other weapons that rely on a spark or flame are not used in the phlogiston.

The effects of various types of flame exposed to phlogiston are as follows:

*Candle (lit): 1 die fireball 4" across
*Lantern (lit): 3 die fireball 1' across
*Oil Flask (lit): 3 die fireball 3' across
*Cooking Fire: 4 die fireball 10' across
*Fireball: 3 times size and effect
*Match (fuse): 1-2 points (plus immediate misfire if arquebus)

These effects occur immediately. For examble, lighting a flask of oil to use as an incindiary weapon will cause it to explode immediately. Actually, a character would have to be extremely tricky and careful even to get that far. The phlogiston would ignite as soon as a flame was created with which to ignite the oil.) The fire resulting from a 'fireball' or other fire-related spell is centered on the wizard casting the spell.

Because of the nature of phlogiston, all flaming light sources are extinguished by the crew before entering the flow. Phlogiston is radiant so no other lights are needed on the exposed decks. Below decks, or in rare (and haunted) Dark Regions of space, cold natural lights (moths or fireflies, fluorescent moss) or magical lights are used for illumination. The heart of dwarven mountain-craft are without running lights, since dwarves have infravision.

Voyagers can move along the rivers of phlogiston at random or according to a planned course. Many of these rivers flow in both directions between two crystal shells. In some cases, a river flows in one direction only, forcing the voyager to follow a different course when running home.

The crystal spheres bob in the phlogiston like corks in an ocean (mind-boggling, enormous corks, but they do bob). As a result, over time the spheres actually shift their positions relative to each other. This almost never changes the courses of the rivers, however, so navigation is possible. But just because a ship passed certain landmarks on its way from A to B does not mean the ship will pass those same landmarks on its way back to A from B. Fortunately, when crystal shells drift to close, the phlogiston between them thickens to the point where the two massive spheres are moved apart and a collision is prevented.

The spheres containing Toril, Oerth, and Krynn form a stable triangle. Travel is possible in both directions between Toril and Oerth, and between Oerth and Krynn. Toril and Krynn are not connected by a river, however, so while a direct trip from one to the other is feasible, it is impossibly slow. From Toril, Krynn can be reached quicker by passing through Oerth than by taking a straight-line path."



There ya go. Long read, sorry, but very informative. Took me a while to type that all. lmao

[DM=DisputeMediator]

Very impressive... Good post, man! Thanks for the info. That definitely cleared up a lot for me. Thanks again!

(Now I wonder how the Spelljammer ships open portals in the spheres so easily...)